396. Scaling Dave to IPO, How to Recruit a Word Class Team, And Predictions for the Future of FinTech (Jason Wilk)

396. Scaling Dave to IPO, How to Recruit a Word Class Team, And Predictions for the Future of FinTech (Jason Wilk)

Jason Wilk of Dave joins Nate to discuss Scaling Dave to IPO, How to Recruit a Word Class Team, And Predictions for the Future of FinTech. In this episode we cover:

  • Navigating the Early Stage of Product Market Fit.
  • How to Drive Down the Cost of Acquisition.
  • How Did the Fundraising Process Evolve
  • Where Can We See the Winners in the FinTech Market
  • Challenges of Competing with Traditional Banks

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Transcribed with AI:
Todayโ€™s guest is Jason Wilk, the founder and CEO of Dave. Dave is a digital banking platform that protects lower income households from overdraft fees and provides them with cash advances. Since Jason founded the business in 2016, Dave has amassed more than 10 million users, raised over $500M in funding and IPOโ€™d in 2022 a $3B valuation.
Jason, welcome to the show!
Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. Of course,
I appreciate you doing this on you know, right after having your first child. It’s Father’s Day. And it’s a pleasure to have you. But can you share the journey to phony? Dave? And can you take us back to that founding moment?
Yeah, well, the founding story was an interesting one. It’s it’s been a long journey. Getting here. So I think back to my, I guess, third company at this point, I was in Y Combinator, building a company called all screen TV. And I attracted Mark Cuban as one of our lead investors for that business, I had sort of aggressively approached him to become an investor, given the sort of sports and media focus of that business early on. And he was a tough investor to catch this is pre Shark Tank days. And it was really challenging to get him to pay attention to what I was doing. But I finally sold him on this vision for this idea. And he told me that he would invest in the business. But given I was not, I didn’t have a tremendous track record at that time. He said, I’ll give you guys $300,000, I’ll lead this seed round for you guys. But your salary is gonna be capped at 30,000 hours a year. And it taught the company can get profitable. So you can imagine the challenges of my co founder myself living on $30,000. Traveling back between San Francisco and LA, trying to build a business, we had to be incredibly scrappy. But it also led to a lot of overdraft fees. In the interim, we were banking with some of these major banks out there and living paycheck to paycheck, it was really hard to keep up with expenses with the salary and 30,000 hours after taxes was leading to quite a few insufficient balances, which led to hundreds of dollars of overdraft fees. So while that last business was not focused on overdraft fees, and banking, I did have a bone to pick with these banks who were, you know, seemingly being quite predatory towards me, knowing that I have income coming in, what was the point of charging me these egregious fees, and I just need to have a little extra money to go buy gas or groceries. And fortunately, we had a successful exit of that company. And we had some wind in our sails to go try and take down a much larger industry. And given that experience of overdraft, we wanted to go build the next great banking institution in this country, and give it a very familiar sounding name, which was Dave,
I’m just gonna ask you about the name. So where does the name come from?
The name really stands for davers quiet. And it’s also supposed to be this everyday approachable brand name. Given these banks who’ve been around for decades, and years, charging people these huge fees, I felt like having a very approachable name made a lot more sense. And it also, again, paired with that davers Goliath mentality, as we’re this small, scrappy team, with no financial experience going up against these monster financial players and disrupting their their fees.
And for those that aren’t familiar with Dave in, in your model, and specifically how you’re disrupting the larger institutions, can you talk more about Dave, your business model? And also how to categorize Dave? Is it a tech company? Or is it a neobank? Because there’s often confusion between the two.
Let’s say it tough to be a neobank without having a real focus on technology. I think that’s really what separates us apart. There’s there’s quite a few different things. And I think, what ultimately set Dave apart from the incumbent banks, but like at the heart, we are a banking product where people can fully submit their paycheck to us. They can fully bank with Dave, we are not a bank ourselves. We are a technology company. All deposits are stored with the vault Bank and Trust who is our partner bank, and they hold all the regulatory situation with the FDIC. We are much more focused on building great product, building a great customer acquisition engine and delivering on a promise of lower fees to our consumers versus what they are paying it Are their bank today. So what Dave is in a nutshell is we are a checking account with no minimum balance fees. That was the first thing we wanted to really disrupt as we were trying to offer an account to get people out of this $15 $20 monthly minimum balances. And then our first go to market was a overdraft killer called extra cash. And what I always disliked about the banks was that I often needed to tap into overdraft to pay for gas and groceries, I needed small amounts of money to get by the banks, they don’t use any data to make the decision on who can overdraft or who can’t. It’s just sort of a one size fits all approach. And because of that, they charge a huge amount of cost for that about $34 is the average overdraft fee. And what Dave really invented was this free overdraft solution where people can access what we call extra cash. And we use transaction data to make a decision on how much overdraft you actually should be able to get. And because we use the data in our underwriting, we can offer it at effectively no cost. So we’ve been able to manage our overdraft business at only 2% loss rate, which is pretty significant. And we’re able to offer our members on average about $134 of extra cash from the second that they join, to go bridge the gap between paychecks. And our solution we think is far superior than that of the incumbents. So the reason to join Dave is looking for a free checking account, you’re tired minimum balance fees, and you need a little extra cash in between paycheck date, and you don’t want to pay crazy overdraft fees. So that’s how we went to market. That’s why we’re able to have as many customers as we have today.
And for those that don’t know, this is roughly 1% of Americans. It’s roughly 90% in that range. Is that correct?
As far as our total addressable market? Yeah. For
those that do live paycheck to paycheck and deal with the problems that Dave addresses and solves?
Yeah, it’s about 60% of folks are having issues with liquidity between paychecks, they’re suffering from at least some level of overdraft fees. And they’re having challenges with things like building credit. And that’s where Dave really steps in to help.
Yeah, it feels like a very underserved segment. I mean, for those that, you know, have the privilege of being around startups and technology, they’re not necessarily accustomed to the problems that the 60s 70 bottom percentage of Americans deal with. So the your path to acquire the insights for Dave is definitely an interesting one. And I am curious to dig later into our discussion in terms of where you’re headed as a business. But you know, first I’d like to talk about some of the crucible moments that you and Dave, as a company faced during your journey, and maybe even prior to talking about fundraising, which I know is an arduous journey. You didn’t have a background in banking, or FinTech, you were an E commerce before and other industries, how did you build the required knowledge base to tackle such a hairy problem in space, such as fintech?
It was a crash course between selling my last business in 2015, and ultimately getting the team together to start to build Dave and 2016. It was, it was an incredible learning curve to go to study everything I could talk to industry experts. The most important part about D was that I had a personal pain point I was really trying to solve. And I think every founder should be starting companies that they feel they have a personal experience with something they have a passion for. Because companies, if you’re successful, even if you’re not successful, are going to take years of your life at a minimum, and if they’re successful, it’s going to take its 10 plus years to a lifetime of work. So you got to make sure you really love the work. And because we had this personal pain point with overdraft fees, and we weren’t banking experts, but we’ve all had checking accounts from the time we were we were kids. So you really know the ins and outs of user experience inflows and outflows. And what we needed to figure out, which is how the underlying infrastructure works, how to how to debit cards get issued, how to you make money on checking account products, how are banks set up today? What are the average fees they are charging for and just got this big lay of the land, including being all the payment processors. There’s so many pieces that have to fall into place. But I think us being pretty green to the industry also helped us look at things from a very fresh set of eyes to which I think gave us a competitive advantage.
And as you mentioned, like you You’ve been a serial founder. This was your fourth business. Correct? was Dave your fourth? Yes, that’s right. Yeah. So fourth business that you founded, what did you find? That was easier? The fourth time around? And was there anything that was more difficult aside from the challenges of getting up to speed with building a fintech?
Not a lot was easier, I’d say it was a little easier to raise the seed round, because we were successful in the last company. Some of our existing investors from that business, it was sort of like a foregone conclusion, they were going to invest in whatever we did next, because they just already made a great return. And setting the seed round was probably easier, although that was probably hit my last company, for better or worse, it was really a great business. But we scaled it to over $20 million of revenue. And it was only about 10 of us on the team. It was a very, very small lean operation. It was profitable, whenever I had to raise any capital beyond our seed seed investment. So I didn’t get a lot of those learnings that I was about to get into with Dave, take it from zero to IPO was just such a such a new experience. For me. I’d say if I were to do another company after this, I’d have a lot more experience. So you know, through the hiring process that the ebbs and flows of going from small business to having several 100 employees, there’s lots of learnings in between there. And obviously all the financings in between seed and an IPO and even managing a public company. Now, how different that is, there’s so much so much really to learn.
Yeah, I know the challenges evolve at each one of the stages. So this may be a difficult question to answer. But if you were to think about Dave’s journey, and three discrete stages, let’s call it the zero to one. So zero to finding product market fit, Product Market Fit to scale. And then from scale to end and growing a public company. What which stage would you say has been the most challenging to navigate?
That’s a good question. I would say the toughest part I, I’ve heard this from multiple founders really is when you cross the chasm of 150 employees, that’s really where things start to get a lot more challenging. And we invested early on and a chief people officer, who was fantastic. She’s been with us for almost almost three years now, as we tried to sort of head that off, like what words can we have, before we go across 150 person mark, so we can have a smooth ride there. And even with that, it was challenging. Once you get beyond a certain amount of employees, having this structure of how to get the team set up putting in putting in more of a traditional management team. Those things are very disruptive to the company in the process. And it slows things down. And it’s not an easy transition, especially as you’re starting to turn over really early stage employees from the company and try them out for people that have been at a stage of the company you’re entering into now it’s because it was it was tough.
If you were to go back sub 150 employees, which seems to be the inflection point, when things get really difficult to scale, and maybe make changes in an agile way, is there anything that you would have done differently in Dave’s journey, sell 150 employees to better set the foundation for scale, whether it’s people processes, procedures, what have you,
I don’t think I would have done anything differently. I just think it’s really a it’s a phase that every company has to go through. And there’s no easy way of going about making the tough choices to put people in seats who have seen what you’re about to go through. Because I think the biggest challenge of navigating from that early stage of product market fit through the later stages of the company is you want to make sure you know I don’t look around corners. And the more that you guess that’s where you end up having a lot of mistakes. And I think there’s a lot of regrettable mistakes we had as a business early on that could have helped us scale a lot faster. And we had people and see that had seen around those corners before versus sort of letting the guessing take place. And that’s a fine balance of letting people grow into a role versus putting somebody in place who has been there before. And those are the tough calls you have to make as a leader and sometimes I was too slow to make those changes.
Yeah, every business is going to deal with their fair share of challenges no matter what everything is 2020. In hindsight, you did mention the seed round and the fact that the seed round was easier to raise. But I know that the early days of Dave weren’t, weren’t the easiest, I would say or maybe not as easy as the seed round to get to series A and beyond. Can you tell us I guess, after the seed round, what were the trials and tribulations that you went through to get to the series A and I’d be curious to just hear more about your your fun fundraising experience, as you navigated beyond that initial seed funding to meaningful capital 10 million plus where, which really sets the foundation to break out and own the market.
Yeah, so the seed round was, again, easier one because we’re raising money on the back of an idea. And we also are raising money in the back of having a successful exit previously, so that wasn’t the hardest round for us to raise. But when you get to a Series A, which I didn’t even raise a Series A in my last business, so this was new territory for me. But that’s a different beast as you’re trying to go now show that not only have product market fit, but here’s my early traction, and I need an investor who wants to pour fuel on that fire. The challenge we’re having in this series a was a great product market fit. We were acquiring customers really inexpensively. And that was the big hypothesis, which is, can we offer a no overdraft solution that gives people money when they need it, and not charge them an arm and a leg for it is not going to be very effective at driving cheap cost of acquisition. And that turned out to be very true. So we knew that was exciting. The piece I had to figure it out, though, is how do we offer this free overdraft to customers and not take a bath on losses. And at that time, we were still eating a lot of losses on every time we were to give somebody out this this free overdraft. So it took a lot of faith for an investor that while the customer acquisition was working really well, where are we ever going to figure out the loss rate thing. And so it took about 120 meetings to get somebody who finally was really believed believing in the team that we would get there. Because it really it was kind of unproven territory, that Neo banks that preceded us, their whole approach to disrupting Banks was to not offer overdraft at all. So effectively, if you go swipe your debit card, you’re out of money, they’ll just say this has been declined. So it’s great that you’ve got this account with no overdraft fees. But if I need to get gas or groceries, I’d actually rather have my other bank and pay the fee because I was I’m stuck at the gas station or stuck at work or getting embarrassed at a restaurant. Dave was really the most innovative the bank to come to market by saying hey, we’re going to not charge overdraft fees, we’re going to give you this amount of money you need small amount, you know, our average amount we give out is about $130. But still, that’s a game changer to go fill, fulfill your everyday expenses versus not having access to it at all. And because of the companies that preceded us, there wasn’t a lot of good cops out there, like alright, what’s the total market size, no one’s really gotten out of them to real scale here. No one’s really gotten beyond a couple 100,000 customers. And we were kind of what what seemingly blowing the doors off that if things were to continue that momentum. So it was that we figure out the loss rate component. And we finally we finally did,
what was the loss ratio component at the time. And I’d also be curious if you can share any of the other series A metrics I, we have a number of founders that listen to the show, and I think it’s helpful to hear benchmarks about where very successful companies ran their journey.
I want to say our default rate was like 25%. It was it was tremendous. So every dollar we gave out, we were losing 25 cents, and that was getting quite expensive. So yeah, you can see why it probably took a leap of faith for investor to believe in us, given our non financial background. I think the the early metrics, so as far as how many users we had, I don’t know that the total amount, I just know that our cost of acquisition was like $5 or less, to get someone to actually download the app and transact with us, which was pretty unprecedented as it compares to an incumbent bank whose CAC is in the hundreds of dollars. There was clearly something there. We just needed to figure out the monetization component of it, to prove up, prove out the business. And now here we are today on a quarter billion dollar run rate after just six years, and it’s been a pretty awesome trajectory.
But was the primary channel in the beginning paid? Or how were you acquiring customers so efficiently?
We’ve always had always had a very healthy mix of organic of givers coming in word of mouth for the business. It’s still about 30% of our traffic today. And but we wanted to really prove out the thesis that we could drive efficient paid advertising, as we knew that could scale over time and word of mouth. If that were to ever run out. We want to make sure that we had a business you could put real marketing dollars behind. And that was an important part of the story early on. And for the series A hopefuls out there I mean that the best thing you can do to go to an investor is have a very succinct equation you can give to them like oh Here’s how much I think my LTV is going to be based on my retention. And here’s how much it cost me to acquire a user and I need $20 million to go prove out the next phase. And that’s going to get us to x many users and x, x revenue. I think it’s really important to have that equation baked in, because that’s what an investor is going to do. They’re going to try and run a model. And to the extent, you’ve got a model that you think is very repeatable, that’s, that’s critical to going out to raise your Series A.
Yeah. And so you mentioned 130. meetings to to get to a yes. What was it changing the pitch? Or how did you specifically get to a yes, like, how did the process evolve, whether it was bringing someone in or hitting certain traction milestones? I’d be curious if anything changed throughout your fundraising process,
I’d say it was largely largely a failure. I mean, at the end of the day, the investor that put money in the company, we got one investor who led the entire round. And that was a warm introduction from one of our existing investors, who said, ignore the loss rates these guys are, these guys are really hard workers. They’re very smart. I can vouch for them, you should you should pack the team, you know, don’t impact the idea. And this particular investor was not even a FinTech investor, they were mostly focused on sort of healthcare investments at that point. But because of this great testimonial we got from one of our investors, that’s how we got the check. So every investor we approached, who was involved in FinTech and the perfect investor, we would have wanted, they just weren’t there yet. And the industry was just also so new. And I think the other piece of it is that a lot of venture capitalists have never had an overdraft fee. So they didn’t really recognize the problem as much as we had because they didn’t have the personal pain point.
Yeah. Was the series A raise the most difficult challenge to navigate? What do you say throughout the business? Or what would you say is our Dave’s most crucible moments?
Yeah, from a fundraising perspective, after the Series A, we got the metrics, right? We raised our next value, our next round of funding and a billion dollar valuation that was a competitive round of funding is always easier when you get some competition and you’re reaching a certain scale or it’s quite attractive. And then the only other round of funding we raise besides that was our public financing.
Wow. That’s a efficient journey. Yeah. Is there anything from the business standpoint that you can share that would you say, was a crucible moment, whatever comes to mind, but something you really had to figure out? Or else the business was facing its demise?
No, I’m like, I think we we’ve been fortunate to be in a good position from a profitability and cash flow perspective. Company, after a series B, we’re actually a profitable business. So in 2018 2019, we were profitable. And then we really ramped up our operations, we doubled the size of the team and swung the business to producing losses for the first time in its history leading into our IPO was we want to make sure we had the right growth, the right revenue profile, the right mix of that, going into that process. And it’s been obviously very challenging the last year as investors, at least the public investors are really only rewarding profitability. So everything we were kind of driving for, which was falling exit existing market sentiment, which was grow the business grow the business at all costs, you have an awesome way to acquire users, you’re disrupting a huge industry, all of a sudden, to putting the clamps on, over investing in growth, and really trying to get the company to profitability has been one of the most, I think, challenging pieces of the business. I mean, we basically had our market cap wiped away as investors are really rewarding, huge market cap companies that our producing cash flow, and anyone that’s not producing cash flow is basically in the penalty box for now. And that’s been a really interesting thing to navigate. Interesting thing to try and talk to employees about, which is, you know, hey, we’re not getting properly valued right now. Trust in the process, trust in the performance, and the patients will eventually get to the other side. You know, that’s been probably the toughest part of the of the company. It’s just the communication, as we got a great business.
Yeah, I mean, you guys have been growing very quickly. When you take a look at the rest of the year here, we’re halfway through the year. What are what are some of the goals for the remainder of 2023 and into 2024?
The big Trumpy for us is to first continue to build products for our customers. I think if you focus on the customer, because you always should. That’s the That’s the name of the game. Then you will find your product market fit, you will continue to grow your business. The second you lose sight of the customer. I think that’s when you can have real, real challenges. So we’re consistently talking to our members and we’re really excited about our product roadmap for the rest of the A year, which is very member centric way for us to continue to build products for them, which we think will be enhancing to our lifetime value for our members. And the second goal of that is to get to get the company profitable. And we will do that by continuing to ship more features, but also just grow into a certain user base as well, that will, that gross profit will supersede our operating expenses.
are you leveraging AI at all right now in the business? I know AI is very topical. But I’d be curious if there any features that are in the works that either currently involve AI or that you’re planning on integrating AI into?
Yeah, so AI has been a pretty big piece of the business for the last several years, we’ve been building our, our whole thesis around offering customers lower cost overdraft is by leveraging transaction data. So we can properly underwrite consumers for for small dollar overdraft. And that’s a much better approach than I said the top of the call, which was banks take a one size fits all approach to overdraft. That’s why one of the reasons it’s so expensive. Our underwriting for the the extra cash product is largely AI driven, we are looking at transaction data, there are billions of different places where people can shop and the types of ways and types of incomes they can they can be generating all that feeds into our model, which basically spits out a internal Dave score that says, hey, this customer is worthy enough of $100 of overdraft this customers for 25, this person for 500. And having that, that AI engine to predict that amount is how we’re able to offer such a superior solution. And that internal score we developed, we think has huge opportunity to be developed into future credit products, as well, where if your credit score is not able to get you through credit products you want maybe your transaction data is and that’s how we built this extra cash feature in the first place. It’s a very powerful engine. And people have used this extra cash service 75 million times now. So you can imagine all the data we’re generating every time that happens, and why we think that’s such a powerful leg to stand on as we go venture into new types of credit products.
Yeah. So for those credit products, I’m sure that plays a heavy hand into what the next three to five years looks like. But specifically, what is the future of banking look like in three to five years for your customers? You talked about some of the short term goals over the next 12 months to get to profitability, and alluded to some of these features. But if you fast forward five years, where do you hope the businesses and the services that your customers can access through Dave?
Well, I think you’re gonna see the winners in this market really leveraging data like Dave. And it’s pretty clear to us that the legacy system is not working for everyday consumers, they need to be able to use other things besides this antiquated FICO score, which everyone seems to go by when underwriting for credit decision that does not work for the majority of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck. And so I think you’re going to see a lot of credit products further developed using AI and data to better price risk. And that should be paired with lower prices for consumers. So just overall better credit access. So I see the next three to five years being played out with a major data differentiator for us. I think you’ll also see just further developments on infrastructure, more modern technology used to help companies like Dave scale to millions more users without adding a lot of headcount. And AI being another important tool there to help them everything’s like customer support. And other areas, it just overall keep the cost down. So it’s not impossible for a company like Dave to have 50 million customers and have less than 1000 employees. Whereas you look at the JP Morgan’s of the world. They’ve got 250,000 employees, they have all these bank branches, they work on legacy software, they’re not using data to underwrite their consumers. And that I think, is our long term differentiated advantages. Our data and infrastructure. It’s it’s huge. I think it’s understated. And I think investors are kind of missing out on how powerful that is in stark contrast to the legacy incumbents that are so far behind and not set up for success there. Yeah, I
was curious to get your opinion on the market more broadly. And your you know, your answer dovetails nicely, but there’s, there’s this general sentiment, I feel like in the VC community right now that Fintech is dead or that it’s just not as an attractive place to be investing in as it was a year or two ago. And that can be said for I think a number of industries He’s, but I, it sounds like you’re obviously very bullish on FinTech in three years, five years and beyond. Why do you think investors are missing the mark on these opportunities? And where do you think investors are getting getting it wrong in their sentiment?
Well, I think it’s generally pretty large herd mentality, every FinTech sitting bucketed together, for better or worse. And I think that’s just the wrong approach, you’ve got to look at fundamentals of these companies. I see a business like D, we have record low CAC, our taxman coming down. Year over year, we’re acquiring customers at record pace, you got margins that are improving year over year, you’re attacking a major industry. And there’s a fundamental disadvantage that the incumbents have that they can’t fix. And when I see an industry like that, that should be very attractive. And that’s not the same for every fintech. I’m not an expert in other areas of FinTech outside of neobanks, but neobanks have a really good story to play. And I think in five to 10 years, you’re going to find that the major banks, they’re not going to be the ones that are servicing the majority of the population with checking account. And everyday credit type products are gonna want to serve as the top five or 10% with wealth management with a with prime credit products, and that’s where the bulk of the revenue will come from. Because of the disadvantage, they have the advantage that David has around modern infrastructure, super low operating costs, a data advantage, we are so much more best set up to serve as the everyday American, the TAM is just massive. Right? Think of the common the combined user base of us chime Cash App. As far as like our overall like active recurring banking customers, we’ve only scratched the surface of the entire opportunity.
You mentioned Neo banks in a way or counter position to the incumbent traditional banking system. Are there any challenges from your perspective that are exclusive to Neo banks in you see as potential impediments that are going to need to be circumnavigated to realize the full potential against the traditional banking system?
Well, I’ll say the one disadvantage we have as a neobank. Typically, Neo bank does not have its own bank charter. And so to the extent that we feel we have a major data advantage to go offer new types of credit products for our consumers, banks have the advantage of having having all the deposits. And that gives you a very inexpensive base of capital to use to go men to customers on those products. Because we are not a Chartered Bank, our cost of capital is quite a bit higher than that of that of an incumbent, which can be a potential impediment as we start to go down the road of these other credit products. But it’s not to say we could not also become a bank at some point in the future.
Got it. Jason, if we could feature anyone on the show, who should we interview and what topic would you like to speak about?
Well, Mark, it was always a great guest veteran, get him on the show. He’s certainly a good one to, to get always has great stories. He’s been a fantastic investor for Dave all the way from our seed round, which he led and help others borrow his name for a lot of our early advertising was pretty invaluable for us.
Jason, what book article or video? Would you recommend to listeners something in recent memory that you found either informative or inspiring?
I’d say this book here this, it’s called who? And it’s, yes, that’s the whole thing. Yeah. Who it’s a great hiring book and talks about the recruiting process, and goes through a lot of what I just talked about, like the hiring scorecard, making sure to ask the right questions, the proper way to do reference checks. I can’t understate the value of sort of that human resource side of the equation. As you’re building the team. It really is all about the people. It’s so critical to the company, you can have the best product market fit, but there’s so many stories of founders clashing or the wrong hire the right hires make the best fit and it’s the right tool for the job that really build the best companies.
And then last, what’s the best way for listeners to connect with you and Dave?
I would say keep following us you know, we’re we have our public earnings calls every every quarter urge people to listen in. And I’m always a resource to reach out to for any any advice so you know, how to reach out to our team for that.
Awesome. Well, thanks again for doing this. And best of luck the rest of the year here.
Thanks a lot. Great to meet you. Awesome.
All right, that’ll wrap up today’s interview. If you enjoyed the episode or a previous one, let the guests know about it. Share your thoughts on social or shoot them an email, let them know what particularly resonated with you I can’t tell you how much I appreciate that some of the smartest folks in venture are willing to take the time and share their insights with us. If you feel the same, a compliment goes a long way. Okay, that’s a wrap for today. Until next time, remember to over prepare, choose carefully and invest confidently thanks so much for listening
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