258. Why I Invested in Neu (Kwame Boler)

Neu Kwame Boler

On this special segment of The Full Ratchet, the following individuals are featured:

  • Nick Moran
  • Kwame Boler

This will be a unique segment where, Founder of Neu, Kwame Boler, will discuss his startup story and how he chose New Stack to participate in the funding round.

Guest Links:

Transcribed with AI:

Intro 0:02
welcome to the podcast about venture capital, where investors and founders alike can learn how VCs make decisions and reach conviction. Your host is Nick Morin, and this is the full ratchet.

Nick Moran 0:18
Kwame Boler joins us today from Seattle. Kwame is the founder and CEO of new a marketplace connecting freelance gig workers with professional cleaning jobs, primarily for vacation rentals. Kwame is a serial entrepreneur that studied Computer Engineering and subsequently worked for Boeing, and also founded a real estate and investment firm. Kwame, it’s a pleasure as always to connect. The pleasure Nick can happy to be here. Awesome. So take us back to the beginning. You know, the give us the short story of how you found it new.

Speaker 1 0:50
So I definitely understood the problem firsthand. While I was at Boeing, I moonlighted a property management company, real estate investment firm that you’d mentioned when a couple of friends and buddies were also engineers at Boeing, we stumbled into the vacation rental market really early on late 2015, early 2016. And we were able to scale very quickly, but it couldn’t find a cleaning company that can keep up with us. So out of that frustration, we decided, You know what, no one better to do it and do it ourselves. And it was a great learning opportunity to where we realized that the cleaning industry was entirely fragmented. Tech was yet to be disrupted. And there was a lot of friction that existed between both aspects of the marketplace between what a homeowner or a house needed, and what a cleaner needed. And we figured out a way to be able to bridge the gap. What

Nick Moran 1:40
Why is it such a challenge to find professional cleaning,

Speaker 1 1:45
mainly because there’s just so much friction that exists within the market, it’s not really sexy to be a cleaner right now, or at least it wasn’t until knew. One of the bigger success points for us is that we were able to not only democratize the market, but give cleaners the freedom and flexibility that they so much craved. They are able to work when they want to. And not because they have to, which is something that both Uber Lyft DoorDash and other gig services were able to introduce too much success. And that uniquely wasn’t really available. The expectation of working a very fixed schedule and fixed hours made it challenging for a lot of cleaners who achieved success.

Nick Moran 2:19
So if I own properties, I can’t just pick up the phone and call a professional cleaning company and schedule them to come when I need.

Speaker 1 2:26
Absolutely, you definitely can. But more likely than not, they’re going to misquote you. And it’s going to be very difficult for them to get to you within a very quick or an expedient amount of time, we figured out a way to be able to introduce next day service. And on top of that leverage multifactor algorithms that will give you a fixed price based off of the square footage, number of bedrooms and bathrooms. In doing so you can get a clean much faster, much quicker and with a lot more. And I didn’t even talk about our secret sauce, which is that we also figured out a way to be able to introduce sheets, towels, toiletries, PPE, disinfectant, and as well as other really nice to have like hand sanitizers and handwritten notes all into our product offering and it’s streamlined in a way to where none of our team members internally within the company actually own this. It’s entirely managed by third parties and contractors, which makes our route or supply chain really scalable to all involved. Yes,

Nick Moran 3:21
I didn’t quite get this at first, right the first time I saw new first time I looked at the deck and met you, you guys were offering this added logistics. You also had materials and cleaning supplies that you give to the individual that’s tasked with, you know, cleaning this particular property. Why is that? So critical? Why are the materials? And why are the logistics, a key part of what makes new successful? Well,

Speaker 1 3:49
we adopted the philosophy early on that the host or homeowner was not exclusively the customer, it was that the cleaner was the customer as well. And as we started to really learn and understand and relate and discuss and talk to a lot of cleaners within the market, we realized that many of these things were huge friction points for them, being able to get access to supplies and equipment, especially when you’re relatively cash poor upfront, can be very, very challenging. And then the other element of it is that logistically just doesn’t make sense. And that I mean the laundry, it takes about two to two and a half hours to do a load of laundry where it takes anywhere between 45 minutes to an hour and 15 to do an actual clean on average. And so through new and our technical efficiencies, we’re able to allow a cleaner to be able to do two to three jobs at the same time that they would no out normally be able to do one, which allows them to earn more on new than they could independently while we maintain extremely healthy margins and everyone involved is extremely happy and satisfied. Right?

Nick Moran 4:52
Right. This is a big epiphany for me, right? So if you have a vacation rental, you’ve probably got the sheets that you use On your beds, if you don’t have many different sets than the cleaners sitting there doing well, even if you do have multiple sets, right? For every bed, they have to do a load of laundry, I would imagine that’s got to be two to three loads per clean. Yeah,

Speaker 1 5:15
and that’s just the tip of the iceberg. There’s so many downstream impacts that come from each and every exchange that a lot of people don’t even think about outside of the procurement cost, you’re going to deal with interesting shelf life problem to where a lot of hosts or rather, guests will have sticky fingers. And you’ll notice your washcloths and other items disappearing over a period of time. Other issues you you’ll see is that most washers and dryers are not commercially prepared. So the average person is washing anywhere from once every week to once every two weeks. That changes drastically when you’re dealing with one to three queens a week. And that’s a lot more loads two to three, excuse me two to six loads a week. And that increased usage also not only spikes, your water bill, your electricity bill and the maintenance of those machines. Even when I was operating as a host, my wife and I had to repair our dryer three times, just because of how frequently the dryer belts would break down. And how frequently we were using the wash. And

Nick Moran 6:17
how do you get access to, to linens? How does that work?

Speaker 1 6:21
So a hidden secret or a little known secret within the hotel, hospital and restaurant and industry is most of them are either renting linens or having their linens laundered by commercial facilities. To give you some perspective, within Western Washington, there’s actually only four guys and they go as far north as Vancouver, BC to as far south as Portland. And they handle every single restaurant, hospital and hotel. And what’s really unique and attractive about this is that since they rent luxury items like boutique hotels, we’re able to plug into those markets. And so we can scale easily just by being able to increase and decrease based off of the number of customers that we have. And these well tested battle tested businesses have been in existence for hundreds of years, but they just haven’t been uh, no one’s been able to apply them in this specific use case, at least the same way that we do until now. They serve the hotel industry. Yes, that’s correct. Right. And talk about why other gig focused or sharing focused or freelance focused platforms have not talked about why they haven’t been successful activating the cleaners, you know, and connecting them with with the appropriate jobs. It’s a couple of things like first and foremost, most of them are not optimizing to improve the status quo. And acknowledging that the status quo is in need to be improved. We’re consistently seeing two different approaches, one being the SAS exclusive approach, where they’re building software to help the with the logistical elements of being able to get the clean scheduled, but they’re not actually handling some of the fundamental issues and inefficiencies that we just even just recently talked about. And because of that, they’re offering an incomplete solution. And on the other side of the spectrum, your local cleaning businesses, they’re not only not technically enabled, but they don’t have the supply chain mechanisms to be able to distribute and introduce other compelling offerings, like linens and toiletries and other supplies without it being very painful. And we’re the ones that have figured out how to kind of more or less balance both. And that’s what makes our model considerably more scalable. Also, with the latter, the local, the local cleaning business, they’re primarily losing employees as agents, where we figured out a way to make it really sexy for contractors.

Nick Moran 8:40
That’s great. And do you feel like you have any real competitors currently? Yeah,

Speaker 1 8:45
the competitive landscape, for the most part, again, does fall into one of those two buckets, either they’re really using software as a means to be able to help the person find a cleaner, but it’s an incomplete offering. Or again, they’re a local cleaning company, which faces a lot of scale problems, challenge problems and get given an incomplete offering. So although there’s competition and pales in comparison to the unique offerings that we have to offer, and it’s more than evident by the fact that once we’re once Discovery does take place, a lot of customers are willing to try us out and want to switch.

Nick Moran 9:17
Kwame, what’s the the long term vision for now?

Speaker 1 9:20
We are confident that we will be the de facto leaders within the cleaning industry, we want to own on demand cleaning. Right now. We’re heavily leveraged within the vacation rental industry. We think it’s a very unique problem. We think that we figured out an extremely compelling offering. It’s more than evidence that we have product market fit within this customer segment and we’re confident that we’re going to scale there. But shortly afterwards, there’s We’ve noticed a pattern and consistency between time sensitivity and price and sensitivity. We want to target a lot more b2b verticals, be able to handle residential cleans, specifically for property managers and real estate agents that are selling property as well as commercial applications for triple net leases that are under 5000 square feet, basically the ones that ABM and the bigger guys won’t touch. And once we really have really strong demand there, and we have a really good supply, strong brand, and a very well established carrier market, we’re ready to hunt the Moby Dick, which is residential cleaning. Once we’re able to offer one demand residential cleaning, there’ll be no stopping us. Yeah, notice,

Nick Moran 10:24
when we launched the syndicate on AngelList, there was a handful of folks in the property management business that preside over many different properties that that were like, I need this now. This is such a pain point. They’re reaching out, how do we get new, you know, activated for us? And it’s, you know, it’s, it’s step by step, you can’t do everything right out the gate. So I, I appreciate the fact that you guys have you know, a focused strategy, you’re going after the vacation rentals, because that’s really the beachhead, that makes the most sense. But it’s great to see that long term vision and the potential as well. Thanks,

Speaker 1 10:59
Nick, it’s definitely been honed, we got to eat, I believe in kind of eating the mountain piece by piece rather than just trying to eat it all at once. And we definitely not trying to drink immediately from the fire hydrant. It’s more than evident that on demand cleaning is high in demand. And if you talk to anyone, most of them are not completely satisfied with the status quo. Yeah, so

Nick Moran 11:21
on that point of piece by piece, and you know, take it on the mountain piece by piece, you know, there’s a huge aspect of this business that is related to Geo expansion, right city by city, you guys have a presence in Seattle, what is the plan, you know, over the course of the next year or so to expand geographically.

Speaker 1 11:40
So hands down, next market we’re zoned in on is Phoenix Scottsdale, it makes a lot of sense, because we deal with some strong, there’s a strong cyclical aspect to our market to where q3 really, really hot, great time. Otherwise, it rains a lot in Seattle. And so the travel is significantly decreased during those other times of year, where it’s actually completely opposite. In Phoenix and Scottsdale, Arizona, there isn’t really too much competition that’s there, there’s a large market opportunity just based off the number of vacation rentals that are present. And we’re quite confident that we’ll be able to capture it just based off of the the unique offering and how again, our competition pales in comparison to everything we can do. Shortly after that we’re going to we’re a little bit more flexible, where we’re thinking our third market. Tentatively, I’ve already done projections for like eight different other possibilities. But we’re somewhere in either between Portland, OR Houston. Portland is a repeatable market. I like Portland, mainly because we have strong confidence and we can kind of leverage a good portion of our learnings from Seattle. But what makes me really attracted to Houston is that Houston has been one of the most aggressively growing markets within the vacation rental space and domestic US. Other challenges are going to be definitely how COVID shapes each of these different markets. And our plans will kind of be targeted there as well.

Nick Moran 13:03
Yeah, I had a good friend call me up when she got wind of new and said, finding cleaning is such a nuisance. Her vacation rental happens to be in Florida, but she was asking me, you know, what’s their time? What’s the timetable for Florida? And I said, you know, at this point, I don’t quite know but give us a couple years and we’re gonna see this this model really blow up. Kwame, talk to us a bit about the team at New.

Speaker 1 13:28
Oh man we have, we have a really amazing team before even transition that it’s Florida is definitely on our radar, like like they are very, very clear. My co founder Claudius, we’ve been working together on this prop on this problem for over three years. Like he’s ex Microsoft. He got to do some really, really cool things with building like remote teams. And he’s been a phenomenal treasure. Like we’ve gone through so many different unique challenges over the course of building out this product that I couldn’t have done it hands down without him and he’s just so impressive. I have a degree in computer engineering, but he makes me feel that

Nick Moran 14:06
special talent I mean, Claudius is unreal.

Speaker 1 14:10
And that’s just the tip of the iceberg. We really pride ourselves on our team and our mission and our values. We have a phenomenal a list group of individuals that live, eat and breathe new every day from our city manager in Seattle, who actually she ironically began her story as a new cleaner, and to where she cleaned on new for nearly a year. Love the company so much to win and opportunity became available, she jumped at the chance. And it was one of the best hiring decisions that we’ve ever made. And all of our customers rave about her in her experience. And we’re also uniquely intercontinental to where almost half of our team is in Lagos, Nigeria. And we work with engineering talent and as well as customer success, customer service and APM or associate product manager roles all throughout Lagos and and it’s just been so amazing how much hard work has been placed and invested by our team. And if you talk to anyone that’s worked with us or worked for us, they all say the same thing, the team is the biggest value. That’s great. That’s great. Tell

Nick Moran 15:14
us a bit about the raise now, actually, even before the race, so your progress to this point. And then what you plan to do with this capital, you know what your key priorities are here in the near future.

Speaker 1 15:26
So we’ve had a lot of really strong progress and milestones over the years to date, we’ve grossed over 520,000 in revenue have done over 7000, cleans and have been in over 200 homes. And that’s just in one Geo. So we’re just barely scratching the surface. We’ve also just recently completed the TechStars accelerator in Seattle, Washington. And that was a huge opportunity for us in our company, to not only gain access to a very strong entrepreneurial network, Seattle has a lot of really strong entrepreneurial networks, but TechStars was definitely a step above them all. And we got access to advisors and resources that we wouldn’t normally have had access to. And it allowed us to not only see clear blind spots within our company, but more importantly, elevate our company to make new a lot more complete and more compelling. In terms of what we’re doing now, we are closing on our seed round, we’re excited to be had the capability of partnering with new stack. We’ve heard nothing but good things about the Moran’s. And definitely a lot about Nick. And I can definitely elaborate a little bit more on that journey. But quite frankly, with the seed, it’s it’s pretty, pretty straightforward. We’re trying to get to 2500 monthly claims. We’re currently at a stage where we’re a little bit under 100. But we’re confident that we can definitely scale to that point, which would get us to about 800 claims a market, or 800,000, excuse me, 80,000 and net revenue a month, close to a 1 million net revenue run rate. Excellent.

Nick Moran 16:52
I do want to get into q&a from investors, we got a bunch of questions. So I’m going to try and sift through those. But before we do so, can you talk a bit more about why you chose new stack? I know that, you know, there was a lot of heat and excitement for new coming out at Tech Stars. And I think we were very fortunate and lucky to get in there at the time we did. But you know, why did you choose to go with us?

Speaker 1 17:14
Honestly, I loved all the interaction with the staff. My first interaction with Nate was amazing. I thought it was incredibly impressive. It was very different than a large portion of the fundraising experience that I had, it was incredibly casual. It was intentional in terms of ensuring that I wasn’t wasting my time, or with respect to my time considerably. I really appreciated the fact that you as well, Nick, were a founder, like that’s a huge requirements for both parties, i in terms of what we’re looking for, for people to join our cap table. We love those that have very strong business experience. We love to learn, we love to be elevated. And so anyone that can really have both their success and failures, Joss just makes that shortcut that much quicker. So that was a good reason as to why also, you know, everyone that we talked to about you guys saying to your praises, I’m like, Oh, yes, like yes, do and don’t even don’t even look back, it’ll be it’ll be one of the smartest moves that you make. And that wasn’t just said once it was said multiple times, so your your reputation definitely precedes you.

Nick Moran 18:18
That’s great. That’s great. We are stoked to work with you and Claudius and the team. Okay, let’s get into some of these questions. Why have you waited to launch the second or third market, as long as you have,

Speaker 1 18:28
we really wanted to ensure that the operational market was solid. We didn’t want to Icarus, we’ve seen so many different businesses that have attempted to solve this problem, or similar ones focus on scaling, and getting vertical growth, instead of really focusing on that horizontal growth and expansion, making sure that that foundation was clear and evident. We’re quite confident that now we have a lot of the moving parts, well oiled like a fine tune machine, and that they can easily be replicated in any of the videos that we go into. So

Nick Moran 18:59
it’s it’s kind of a chaotic time, right? The vacation market and travel market in general, is completely in flux. And we’ve got Airbnb bookings, you know, being cancelled, some people are doing road trips, how has this affected New? And do you have any data on where you think it will go next? Because you guys at this time are heavily tied to vacation rentals? Absolutely.

Speaker 1 19:23
And it’s an excellent question. COVID was definitely a unique one two punch. We saw in February, our transactions dropped to 40% of same time last year, and then in March dropped to 90%. Or excuse me, dropped to 10% of same time last year. It was it was it was scary. It was scary to really be able to figure out how to navigate and kind of sit back and so we made the collective decision to take a step back, talk to our advisors talk to our team, we came to the logical conclusion that it was best to furlough our entire ops team clear out some technical debt and kind of bunker down. The next thing that came. And what was more evidence was that vacation rentals was going to be the clear winner in the hospitality space, we ended up deciding to come back and start cleaning again in May. And then between May and June, the number of transactions increased by over 200% in between June and July, and it increased by over 138%. And this wasn’t unique. What the market was telling us was that people were desperately craving travel, they wanted to travel, but they don’t want to stay in hotels. No one wants to stay in hotels, and domestic travel has skyrocketed, especially within a 300 mile radius to where a lot of people are traveling, any place that they can drive to it’s ideally within three hours or less. And it’s uniquely created an opportunity for us to where we are the only ones that were able to introduce a compelling offering to make the point clear and drive at home. Brian Chesky, the CEO of Airbnb introduced the enhanced cleaning standards, a unique set of standards requiring hosts to offer more disinfectants and PPE into ensure that they’re providing their guests with a much safer space. He said that cleaning is now the number one problem. And it’s the number one success point for you to be able to have success within your listings. We talked to other different vacation rental boards and saw that those that were advertising that they were using professional cleaning services were seeing jumps in bookings as high as 40%. And it became even more evidenced by the fact that as people started discovering more about our offering within these forums, they were begging us screaming, asking for us to go into each of these other GIOS because they needed a solution that was just that unique. It just it just kind of solidified that all of our hard work was kind of really coming to fruition. One thing that most people don’t realize is that travel is uniquely in a position to where almost after every major market recession, there’s a like a huge boom, a lot of the best companies have actually been formed during recessions, Airbnb itself came out of the Great Recession. And they leveraged the travel boom, to expand into the phenomenon that it is now. And we’re quite confident that we can actually ride that exact same wave where everyone else is seeing turmoil, I see opportunity. And the fact that so much of the competition has been leveled out. And now gives us the opportunity to really hit the gas and go hard. Love

Nick Moran 22:28
it. Do you foresee opportunities to partner with Airbnb in the future?

Speaker 1 22:33
Absolutely. We were chatting actually, prior before COVID. There’s definitely a lot of alignment between all of our core values and the problem that we solve. And quite frankly, even with them announcing the lighthouse project, and then partnering with the NAACP, then Claudius and I as African American founders are in a unique position to where we’re solving one of Airbnbs biggest problems. And we’re actually also entrepreneurs of color. And I think that there will be increased pressure at some point in time. But regardless, we want that move to happen when it’s the right time for all parties involved. And we’re confident that we are the superlative solution that exists within the status quo will just be able to scale and get to that point. And once we’re there will own the entire ecosystem. The

Nick Moran 23:23
market opportunity here is massive. I don’t think a lot of people see it readily because it’s cleaning isn’t sexy. You know, we’re now talking about augmented reality and blockchain, right? We’re talking about cleaning. And it kind of reminds me of an investment we did five years ago and a company called tovala, which is a way to cook amazing dinner at home with no effort. That’s delicious, you know, hot meals, but it just was not a sexy investment. Everyone’s like, oh, it’s hardware, it’s consumer. But we saw Well, the ticket size is really high. And the use case is really frequent. Right? Everybody eats on top of this, this is a massive market opportunity. If they can access the beachhead and grow the right way deliberately, this thing can be huge. And now you know Devall has had massive success. They raised a big series B they’re positioned for big things. I see new as a high frequency use case, a high ticket item. It’s not super sexy. People don’t quite get how big the market is. But it’s it’s so big, just within the vacation rental market. It’s big, but beyond that crazy large.

Speaker 1 24:29
It’s huge. Just to put it lightly, prior to COVID. There were 800,000 check ins per day. Just on Airbnb. That’s not even including verbo HomeAway FlipKey all Nope, just on Airbnb 100,000 800,000.

Nick Moran 24:48
Each one of those are professionally cleaned before checking. majority of

Speaker 1 24:53
them are the vast wipe. To put it in perspective. Over 60% of them are entire homes. A lot of people enter the assumption that Airbnb is glorified couch surfing. But the reality of the circumstance is that the majority of the market is actually entire homes to where people that have second or third homes are using it as a means of income instead of using long term rentals, right. And the vast majority of those nearly 100% are leveraging third party services like new in order to get the jobs done. And that’s really where the market opportunity is. And that’s every single day. Yeah, crazy.

Nick Moran 25:29
So, Kwame, another question here. So on the supply side, obviously, you need reliable, efficient, high quality folks that you’re partnered with on the cleaning side, how do you find them? And how do you make sure that they’re doing the jobs to your standard,

Speaker 1 25:48
we have an extremely thorough curation process, starting first with us doing post marketing and different channels where our cleaners usually gravitate towards to find work, to doing an info and discovery call to become better educated, or all of our offerings and learning about why we are the best market answering any question just to make sure that the best qualified before we move on an orientation, which more thoroughly and educates them, followed by them trying this out and being on a bit of a trial period to where they get less cleans to have less risk, less exposure, and validation and proof that this is something that works for them definitely more of a taste before they bite. We also ensure that they have the ability to shadow successful cleaners, like market leaders as well not necessarily market leaders, but high performers that are doing extremely well. That way they can reduce their learning curve and become a lot more educated within a very short window of time. Once there, we leverage a meritocracy based system to where we use a self policing model, based off of the guest rating. So the guest sees a cleverly written note that’s written by us to educate them about our that we were the ones that took care of them, and to ask them and encourage them to leave us a review. And from those reviews, we have really strong churn criteria to ensure that those that are performing are having over 95% of our highest score. So we’re incredibly intentional with ensuring that we’re dealing with the best of the best. But more importantly, that the model itself is self policing. And then it’s incredibly organic. So the touchpoint frequency between us and a service provider that’s looking to join us as a customer is pretty low. But the onboard experience is superlative. And they’re able to get it and be able to scale or operate at nominal rate within a two week period of time. And

Nick Moran 27:42
these individuals can make more money with new than they they can with other platforms.

Speaker 1 27:48
Absolutely. For more perspective, their cleaners on newer earning somewhere between 25 to $35 an hour. Wow. And

Nick Moran 27:55
what do customer satisfaction scores look like? Or how do you measure that?

Speaker 1 27:59
We’re intentionally customer focused like our CSAT and PMF scores are like out of the roof. To give you an idea, over 80% of our customers on both sides of our market have it said that they would be extremely dissatisfied if it was to disappear overnight. Wow, it’s a measurement of success that superhuman used to where they said that if you’re doing 40%, it means you’ve achieved product market fit. We’re double

Nick Moran 28:26
that product market fit? Yeah,

Speaker 1 28:27
I’d say quite confidently. It’s more than evidence that our customers love our product. And even within the COVID pandemic, we’ve increased Product Market Fit by introducing the PPE, the supplies, the microfibers, to where the host pre purchase it, and the cleaners are provided it which not only makes the experience considerably safer for them, but a lot more standardized, and a lot easier.

Nick Moran 28:55
What is your biggest challenge or barrier to success?

Speaker 1 28:59
I would say Claudius and I are not marketers, we are really, really good at honing building product operating and fine tuning. And I think that the fact that we’ve been so customer focused, has allowed us to really introduce not only product market fit at a relatively shorter window of time, or extreme product market fit, but we don’t sell our product as best as we could. And I think that if we had the right person that was joining our team, we would be amplified in multiples. And it’s evidenced by the discovery process almost every time that we’re actually talking to a customer on the phone, they convert, because as soon as they’re educated to the fact that we exist, and why we exist and how we work and what else is available in the market, we’re converting them over 80% of the time. So if we were able to improve our offering, not an offering more, but how it’s being displayed. I think that we can sell it a lot better than what we do or how we would want it to be sold to ourselves.

Nick Moran 29:58
Well, we’re probably not going to publish this pub Look, we for some. If you’re out there listening and you are a growth marketer, you can’t do much better than working for Kwame and Claudius Kwame. Thanks so much for the time today. This is this was a lot of fun to do. I always learn something new every time I talk to you and I appreciate you. You sharing the time.

Speaker 1 30:18
Oh no, Nick, this was completely awesome. I had a blast. I always enjoy having the opportunities to do stuff like this. And it was just a great conversation between friends. Thanks, man.

Speaker 2 30:31
That will wrap up today’s episode. Thanks for joining us here on the show. And if you’d like to get involved further, you can join our investment group for free on AngelList. Head over to angel.co and search for new stack ventures. There you can back the syndicate to see our deal flow. See how we choose startups to invest in and read our thesis on investment in each startup we choose. As always show notes and links for the interview are at full ratchet dotnet and until next time, remember to over prepare, choose carefully and invest confidently thanks for joining us