425. How NVIDIA Beat Intel, Building a Firm Based on Go-to-Market, and Why Deal Judgement Trumps Deal Access (Rob Rueckert)

425. How NVIDIA Beat Intel, Building a Firm Based on Go-to-Market, and Why Deal Judgement Trumps Deal Access (Rob Rueckert)

Rob Rueckert of Sorenson Capital joins Nick to discuss How NVIDIA Beat Intel, Building a Firm Based on Go-to-Market, and Why Deal Judgement Trumps Deal Access. In this episode we cover:

  • Venture Capital, Marketing, and Sales Strategies
  • AI’s Impact on the Tech Industry, Jobs, and Innovation
  • Hiring Early Employees, Building a Strong Team, Leadership, and Company Growth
  • Entrepreneurship, investing, and Solving Humanity’s Biggest Problems

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Transcribed with AI:

Rob Rueckert joins us today from Lehi, Utah. Rob is a partner at Sorenson’s Growth and Ventures teams. He co-founded the firm’s Ventures practice, Sorenson Capital, a multi-stage venture fund investing in B2B software, in 2017. Prior to Sorenson, he was a managing director at Intel Capital, advising/specializing in a variety of technology sectors. Rob, welcome to the show!
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Yeah, it’s a pleasure to have you. I’m sorry, I missed you last week when I was in Utah.
Yes, it would have been nice to see you. But I’m here. You enjoyed your time there.
Yes, I did. Next time I’m there. I will drop by the Sorenson office and say, Hello, sir. Thank you so much for the time today, can we just start off with a bit on your backstory in your path to becoming an investor? Yeah,
my backstory is engineering. So in order to pay for tuition in undergrad, I learned how to code I taught myself how to code, because that was a higher paying job than working at at the mall, or whatever else it might be. And I paid for tuition that way, and then got a computer science degree. And from there, wrote code went from writing front end code to running back end code, really data data engineering, did that for a period of time before going to business school. And then I moved from writing code to investing and people that write code.
Amazing. And then your journey to get to Intel Capital. What What was your focus there?
Yeah, well, Intel Capital at the time was hiring a lot in software investors. And you know, obviously, it’s a semiconductor company, they were traditionally investing in what was core to home, and they were branching out into software and other industries. And because of my background in software, that’s why I landed there. And they taught me how to invest they right off the bat, it gave me a chance to deploy cash, which was nice,
amazing. And then what prompted the move. I know you’re at Intel for a number of years. What prompted the move to Sorenson?
Yeah, you know, I was really happy at Intel, they betrayed me, well, the career was going well as getting paid well. And so I didn’t think I was going to leave until I met the people at Sorenson. They enticed me to come join them. And the reason why I joined was it was more entrepreneurial in nature, it was, how do I build help build Sorenson into a national brand into being multiple different strategies from a growth fund to also a venture fund? It was that challenge of saying, Hey, can I build something after decades of of investing in people that build
things? Amazing. And tell us more about the thesis at Sorenson? Yeah,
so we invest in b2b. So I’m very product centric, it kind of resonates with my engineering side, everything we look at and invest in is really deep product that enterprises purchase enterprises purchase these products to run their businesses on. So that lends itself to cybersecurity data infrastructure, even on the application side, the deep applications
amazing. And then do you have certain stages or sectors or technologies of focus?
Because we have a venture fund, we have an early stage fund that does series seed and Series A, and we have a growth fund that does Series B plus. So it’s, it’s actually really I love it, because then I can just focus all my time on is this a great company? Is this an entrepreneur I really want to work with? And if the answer is yes, we can invest early, we can invest later. And I get to be really focused on the team in the in the product, and not worry as much about what stage it’s in. Got
it. So it sounds like you spend time across stages across sectors across different themes. I do.
Yeah, we have dedicated teams for the venture team team. And we have dedicated teams for the growth team. I’m, I’m a part of that goes across both. So I’m lucky I get to work on both sides. Amazing.
And then what would you say are the primary ways in which you know Sorenson is different than other venture firms? Yeah,
we decided a long time ago that, you know, investors always give this advice to startups, right, which is focus on something be excellent at something not try to be all things to all people, we just decided to take our own advice. And so instead of trying to be an investor, there’s all things to all companies, we decided we’re just going to be excellent to go to market, we’re really really going to be good at helping companies mature their sales and marketing departments, the customer success, the data, the metrics, the the umbrella, the philosophy, and that’s what we specialise on, and sort of the feeling is, is we’re investing in companies that have great product, and whether they have a lot of sales or a little bit of sales, they always want more. And so if we can help them on their journey, if we can help get them get to their destination just a little bit quicker, because instead of learning you know, through making mistakes, we can we can help shorten some of those mistakes and and grow faster and get there quicker. What
would you say are the most common mistakes for you know, companies that are maybe transitioning from seed to series A and No, it’s a generalisation every company is different. But if you think about like the transition from C to A, or maybe a to b, are there common themes of traps or missteps or, you know, issues that that companies have with with regard to go to market? Yeah,
it’s it’s kind of intuitive, but what you think it would be, which is, most companies, most early stage companies are started by a brilliant founder who has a big problem there, they have a product, right? They love the product, the company is the product. And of course, they have to start selling. So they hire some salespeople, and they go knock on doors. And then once it gets to a bigger scale, then they realise they need marketing to help shape the narrative AB test who is coming into they do that a little bit late in the cycle, I find that most companies are they start their marketing division just as a responsiveness to saying, hey, we need to have more in the pipeline. When the reality is the journey of a customer starts with marketing starts with how you first hear about the product, it’s a journey, the customer doesn’t see it as marketing, sales, customer success, the customer just sees it as their journey in engaging with the product. And I find that most young companies start their marketing department later than they should, you
know, some of the companies that we’ve had that have scaled to a, b, c and beyond. There’s always this trick when doing marketing and getting the right MQL. And I’ve had some debates about whether, you know, the qualification step should be done in your messaging and your product positioning. So part of the marketing or should it be done after that? Do you have any thoughts on qualification of leads and doing it the right way, as a part of that marketing muscle? You
know, like 10 years ago, maybe even longer marketing was seen as sort of an art and not a science. I think we’re past that today. So it’s a marketing sales, customer success. It’s all very data analytical, you know, what works with what doesn’t work if you measure it. And I find that people get to the measuring later than they should? In other words, yes, exactly what you’re saying the marketing qualified lead is a quality one is not quality one, well, AB tested, follow the pathway of that lead all the way through to the sale, break it up into segments, so you can measure the bottlenecks. And then when you can measure and identify bottlenecks, you can knock them down and you can get more efficient and quicker. And
I love just that little comment about all the way through to the sale, because I’ve been in instances where you can fill a pipe, and they’re qualified and they look good. But if you’re not measuring all the way to bottom of funnel, then you could be wasting a lot of time with tire kickers.
Yeah, that’s a measure all the way through to customer satisfaction and apps, like better the customer is on this on one journey, not in three different segments. So you should you should make them delighted and wanting to stay with you forever starting with your first messaging and, and making it be one continuous flow
should help with ICP to, you know, before we move on, I want to touch a little bit on your experience as an MD at Intel Capital, you know, Intel dominated the chip industry for decades, and now has been passed by Vidya. What do you think Intel got wrong? Or do you think they will once again sort of overtake the position atop market share?
Yeah, I think until fell into the trap that a lot of big cash cow companies fall into, which is hunger, right? You Intel has this incredible cash cow that just delivers lots of money on a continuous basis. And then they would experiment on the edges of different items, you know what, what’s next and what’s on the forefront, but they were experiments. And you never had to be hunger or put all your chips in or be all in. Because you had this backstop of the cash cow. You saw this with Microsoft for a long time. Microsoft had the cash cow of of their operating system and, and the Office Suite. And so they weren’t hungry. And so they kind of hid in the stall where they were surpassed and then they got hungry again. And were able to come back with new leadership. A lot of company fall into this trap when they can make a lot of money without trying too hard to advance things. And that’s not the way the tech world works. The tech world you’re gonna get surpassed unless you’re hungry and desperately going after the next thing.
What do you think five years from now? Do we see a new name? That’s maybe not currently in the top 10? Semiconductor, you know, Chip space that attains double digit market share? Or is it the you know, the same cast characters?
I think there’s always there’s always something around the corner. That is I don’t know if you know, telling me but I think there’s always someone around the corner that’s going to challenge the status quo that’s going to change things. So yeah, so I do believe it’s going to happen. I have no idea who that is, or what change is gonna happen. But young companies are desperate and hungry and big companies often aren’t. And that’s why young companies typically when
it sucks, I mean, just recently I’ve had some exciting conversations with trading firms that are doing chip innovation. machine learning model firms that are doing chip innovation, you know, the way that chips are designed will have to change in the changing world in the way that you know, compute is distributed and and the way that it performs.
Yeah, I mean, it will change as well, right. And so we’re in a world where GPUs are in high demand, it wasn’t that way, 10 years ago, 10 years from now, it’ll be something else that’s in high demand, because our compute needs and desires will change as well.
So Rob, as you mentioned, you were a developer before you were a VC? What factors do you think will have the most impact on DevOps in the next couple of years?
Yeah, it’s, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s interesting what it does, but it’s kind of cliche, but the AI wave of how the machine is helping right now assisting the engineer. But there’s other companies that have been introduced in the last little bit that are now trying to go to the next level of trying to change the logic. And right now, the engineer uses their own logic to decide how these tools are going to help them engineer product. Well, what if the next step the computer does some of the logic and is able to decide what is the best best pathway forward, I’m really excited about all these changes, when I was an engineer, 100 years ago, and I was writing code, all these tools that are coming out all these ways to be more productive, and to be more nimble, and to have assistance is I would have loved to have those tools. In today’s it’s even more complicated, because the engineer has to do so much more. The whole shift left means that they have to do cyber, they have to do DevOps, have to do testing, all that is falling on their plate. And I don’t know how anybody can be excellent at that, all of that. So the fact that technology is advancing to help assist and deliver higher quality code and quicker, I think is exciting.
So is it a big accelerant for the developer community? Is it you know, going to take jobs, we hear a lot of fear mongering on Twitter, I’m tend to find myself in the more optimistic camp. But I’d love to get your take on how it affects, you know, jobs and developers
and engineers right now aren’t shorting aren’t there, there’s no shortage for them to find a job. Right? We’re in a, we’re in a famine of jobs for the engineer. So right now, I think this is productivity. It’s allowing a great engineer engineer to be able to do a lot more than they ever could before. I had an average engineer to learn how to be great. And I think that’s actually exciting. I think it’s going to fill in voids, I think it’s going to allow the whole community to develop better code and faster, which is just going to push the boundaries of innovation even quicker. And right now it feels really fast, right? It feels like the world is changing quickly. I think, right? We’ve seen nothing yet.
Yeah, I’ve got my nephew. He’s a junior in high school. He’s shadowing us tomorrow at the office. And he was asking me about jobs in the future and will AI take the jobs and I was telling him just get really good at using the tools like AI as a tool. Like many things, if you practice and know how to use it, you’re gonna be way ahead of your your peers.
That’s, that’s the way it’s always been right? All with all the new technology breakthroughs, every gets afraid that it’s going to change, change, change is uncomfortable, but change is progress also.
So while we’re talking engineers and jobs, Brian Chesky, recently spoke about how it took four to five months for Airbnb to hire their first engineer. What advice would you have for founders, when hiring early employees in engineers,
that’s it’s all comes down to people, you know, after doing this, as long as I’ve been doing it, you know, when I first made my first investment, I was all excited about, hey, this career is gonna be all about the big outcome, right? If you invest, you have this big outcome, and IPL, whatever it might be, and you’re gonna just feel so excited and satisfied. I learned something different from that, through my career, which was the most rewarding parts of the career wasn’t the outcome or the money. I mean, those are nice. But the most rewarding part was the journey with the people that you’re, you’re doing the journey with, right? So when you get to the finish line, or you get to a milestone with people that are you’re in the trenches working with, and they become friends, they become co workers, in a way is just incredibly rewarding. And if you’re gonna go on that journey, as a founder, you’re gonna create your team, you’re gonna be with that team for a while, and you’re gonna see the trenches together. Pick, pick WISE, it’s a it’s a marriage, right? It’s, it’s not a add this person. And if we don’t get one, that’s fine. No, it’s it’s a lot more than that. Because you’re going to celebrate together, you’re going to be sad together, pick carefully, because the people that you surround yourself with is going to make that company or break that company. And I think that’s what a lot of, I think there’s a little bit of that missing in the venture space now. It’s there. But you know, 10 years ago, 20 years ago was a cottage industry, where it really was the personal connection, which was so important, because you were in the trenches together, right? You did a lot under the heavy lifting, and you work together, what we’ve seen over the last five years is, you know, there’s been some late stage funds that are more of an index fund of all the companies out there, where there is no personal connection, right? They’re just trying to own stock in different private companies, and they hope that they flourish. And it just takes away that, that need that connection that has to happen. Meaning the if you’re going to raise money from Venture from the venture capitalist, you’re getting it from a person, and that person better be involved deeply with you, and they better help the company, they work for you. That’s the way I see it, is that I work for my founders, and then I create this bond with them that just is so rich. So
do you have any tactical advice? Or examples of maybe how one should think about the picking? You know, is there are there any tricks or tips or tactics you’ve picked up? Over the years? I’m sure you have in your you know, role as an investor. But with regards to hiring, you know, finding that right person filtering a huge funnel, getting, you know, through to the right person who’s going to make the right fit on the team. And any advice there?
Yeah, a few things. I think one common mistake I find CEOs make frequently is they hire somebody they can manage, as opposed to somebody that inspires them. So if I, if I’m the CEO, and I, and I’m really honest with myself, and I know what I’m good at, I know what I’m not good at, for the areas that I’m not good. Let’s hire somebody who’s great at that, and let them do it. Right, give them give them the long leash, give them all the freedom to just be excellent at that. And I should be hiring somebody in that category that inspires me that I’m going to learn from, I find that if you only hire people that you can manage, then you’re the bottleneck. And if you’re the bottleneck of your own company, and you’re only gonna go so far, you’re just gonna, you’re gonna plateau out. But if I can hire incredible people around me, that are great at what they do, then I’ve I’ve removed the bottlenecks. And now that company can be as good as it possibly can, because we have great people around me. So don’t settle, right hire people that inspire you that excite you, it’s going to be more intellectually stimulating anyway, and you’re going to enjoy the journey a lot more.
Now, often inspiring people are truth tellers, you know, that can be hard to work with, they’re not as easy to get along with any any thoughts on that, you know, like, the conformist social beings often maybe lack the inspiration or the truth telling, but the truth tellers can be sometimes you know, abrasive. Yeah,
I think it comes down to what am I trying to accomplish? Right? Am I trying to make my own ego feel good? Or am I try and make the company be incredible? You can hire somebody who is disruptive and also destructive at the same time. So I think there is a balance. Yeah, but you can. But if they’re gonna if you hire somebody who’s not going to be disruptive, but it’s going to make me very uncomfortable, but it’s going to make the company great. Do it. Please.
Rob, how would you relate the similarities between running a company and running an engineering organisation?
Yeah, I think we’re in a world where they can be very similar. And what I mean by that is engineering has a reputation for being very programmatic. Do you put all the Gantt chart together about what I’m developing first and second, and it’s all lined up. But it still requires a level of creativity and ingenuity to kind of be curious about how I can push the boundary and go to the next thing? I think that’s very similar to what a company has to do, you map it out. But mapping it out alone does not does not solve the problem, you have to be you have to be curious. And listen, you know, the good thing about engineering is you get feedback, right? You put your code out in the wild, and you get feedback immediately what breaks what people like, what people don’t like. And so you become a really good listener, as an engineer, I think the best companies are the same way. They put product out there, and they listen intently to the customer. And as long as I look, that’s why young companies win against larger companies, is because they have to listen because they’re desperate to listen. And if they can keep that culture of desperately listening for, for a long period of time, that’s when they they don’t lose the competitive edge. Big companies sometimes stop listening.
Maybe this is just coincidence, but I’ve noticed more pitches recently, where there are co CEOs have have you come across that and what’s your position on, you know, to two equal Co Co leaders instead of one true? See? Yeah,
I think it’s hard. I think it’s actually really hard. And the reason why is the reason why another reason why young companies win is because a nimble Yeah, that they listen to they can make quick decisions, they can pivot, they can get to the next step fast. If you have two people making the decisions as opposed to one, you’re slowing yourself down whether you want to or not, you’re just going to be because two people aren’t always going to think the same and they’re not always going to decide the same things. It’s going to take you longer to make decisions, it’s gonna be harder for you to be to be nimble and pivot. I just think you’re, you’re adding burden to yourself. I also think the same way with thick org structures as a young company. Why? Right? If your job is to listen and be nimble, make sure your organisation is set up to be nimble to CEOs is not set up to be nimble. I
love that. Rob, you’ve invested in over 100 companies now what have you learned in hitting that milestone?
You know, I touched on this before, but it really comes down to people and coming from an engineering background. i It wasn’t intuitive to me, right? I thought it was a we can be programmatic, we can knock down problems, that it’s all mechanical. But what I’ve learned after being with so many different companies, is that the mechanics and the operations is part of the story. But the most important part is, is the people. It’s interesting word of technical world where the machines can do so much. And there’s such a big playbook and there’s money everywhere. And it still comes down to the individuals on the they’re running the company is so important. And I think it’s something that people gloss over, especially younger investors, I think they, they forget that they look at the shiny object, the great technology, the the money behind that, the valuations, I think sometimes they forget that, it really comes down to the individuals and their ability to listen and, and achieve. But that’s also the fun part of it too. Right? The fun part is is isn’t it isn’t mechanical, it isn’t operational, it really comes down to people. And that’s where you can really enjoy this job. Because you connect with really, the My favourite part about this job by far is I get to be on the journey with some really incredible people, their drive driving the car, it’s their car, they’re driving it, they’re going to the destination, but I get to be part of that journey. And I get to join that car with just incredibly bright people that are taking big risks in our life. That’s, that’s exciting. Sometimes it’s terrifying. But it’s very, very rewarding. It’s my favourite part of this job.
So we have inspiring entrepreneurs, we have good listeners, we have those that are determined resilient, you know, you’ve done a lot of this, you’ve been at this for a while, if you had to boil it down to kind of your your top characteristics. If you can only pick maybe two or three, what have you found, you know, it are the characteristics that really stand out in the best entrepreneurs that you’ve worked with, you
know that it’s this delicate balance between being so confident that I can step out far on the limb and take a lot of risks. And yet being so humble, to know what my weaknesses are and be very aware of my own shortcomings. That’s a hard balance. It’s hard to be really confident and really vulnerable and transparent at the same time. But I find those to be the most exciting entrepreneurs, the ones that are taking risks, and they’re going to achieve something that nobody else can achieve. But they know they can’t do it alone. And they know that they’re not strong enough to do it alone. Love
it. So so every podcast wants to talk about AI and the hype. Yes, sectors out there. It’s a little lazy, I’m going to ask you what sector segment or category is getting far too little attention now. But based on the impact you think it will have, it should be getting more attention,
you know, the one that excites me the most, and this is gonna be a different answer, because it’s not a space I’m deep in. But one of the biggest problems we have in this world right now are our health issues, right? Heart disease, cancer, dementia, we all know somebody that has one of those three, we probably all know somebody that has, we probably know multiple people, but have multiple of those three, I find those to be data issues, right? Why don’t we know the causes of these issues? Why don’t we know the cures of these issues, and we’re now into a world where machine learning and the machine can connect dots that we our own brains have not been able to connect? I am so optimistic that we’re going to find out what we can do better with our own diet with their own lifestyle to prevent some of this stuff and that we can also find cures for some of these problems. So like I’m not a healthcare person I have I have no medical degree I don’t know the space at all. But if you ask me what I’m most excited about that I think we talked too little about is how engineering and technology can solve some of humanity’s biggest problems not just making something incrementally better in the in the workplace but actually solve our our biggest diseases and and sorrows
of it. Rob if we can feature anyone here on the show who do you think we should interview and what topic would you like to hear them speak about you know,
I’d love to hear you re every programme podcast likes to highlight the big winners, the you know, the Facebook’s the, the open AI is the all that sorts that we’d like to we’d like to highlight the those people and hold them up as a, as a symbol of success and where we should had, we spend almost no time talking about the people that have dedicated their whole life to the startup, this making a real impact, that may not be a $50 billion outcome. Yeah. And I think there’s stories of the, of the hardship of putting everything on the line, and having no money and going without and living off of ramen to get to a point that is still an incredible achievement, even if it’s not 50 billion. I wish we heard more of those stories, because I find those to be a lot more instructive to the mass population, because most startups are not going to be a $50 billion company, and probably most of them shouldn’t even aspire to be that there can be incredible success in the in the journey to a couple 100 million dollar. Excellent.
We Rob, we’ve all got those stories where, you know, we know we made the wrong decision. And often it’s the bad outcome, or in some cases, you get lucky. What about have you had situations where you know, you made the right decision? But the outcome was was not good. Any of those things?
Yeah, you know, yes. And that’s kind of come back, come back to what you were talking about earlier. With my with that first company that failed, right, where I didn’t have conviction, but it failed. I am I am very okay with a company that I have full conviction in. And it just doesn’t, doesn’t make it because my heart’s in it. I’m working side by side with the entrepreneur. I’m all in. And if it doesn’t make it, then then so be it. We gave it our best. But I came in convicted, and I left convicted, and it just didn’t didn’t hit magic. I think that’s okay. I’m very comfortable with that. Where I’m uncomfortable is if I went in, not convicted, and then it went south, then then, you know, I feel like I’m not being authentic in the process.
Yeah, yeah. Rob, what book article or video? Would you recommend the listeners something in recent memory that you’ve found informative or inspiring?
Yeah, it’s a it’s a really good question. It’s not, it’s not what I have a great answer for. Right. So when I hear that question, I try to think about what are what are things I should be reading? What should I be watching? So I’d probably ask that of you, you get to see that from a lot of people. I love to read and learn. But I don’t have something to recommend.
It can tell you what I’m reading right now. It’s a book about James Simon and the medallion fund. I don’t recall the title of the book, but it’s quite good. Well, good.
I’ll have to look that up.
It’s a true startup story, too. I mean, best performing, I think hedge fund of many, many decades. But it’s a true startup story with fits and starts ups and downs skin, you know, that
kind of reminds me you talked about who you should be talking to, I think there’s there’s certain investors out there that go all in with their companies. I had, I had one investor. It was incredible. He’s he’s a, he’s a good friend. And he’s someone I look up to in a big way. And the things that he did with this company we’ve got so we had a company that was growing, the CEO had, there had to be a CEO change. And we had a board meeting where that CEO change was happening, right, where the former CEO was stepping down, and the new one was stepping in. And he out of his own pocket, got got a car for the old CEO, just to thank him for, for all the work he did to get to that point. And just that that he was so emotionally, all man and he cared about the people so much that you went out of pocket and out of out of the way to do everything he could to show that appreciation. I would love to hear more stories about that. Right? It can the financial outcomes are fine. But the people aspect, I think there’s a lot of people stories in this industry that are begging to be told.
But Rob, do you have any habits, tactics or techniques that are a secret weapon?
I don’t know if it’s a secret weapon I’m wired to be, I don’t think it’s a good lifestyle choice. But I am perpetually dissatisfied. And then I try to pair that with being kind. And those are an interesting pair parody, right, which is, I always feel like there’s got to be something next to reach for something that drives me to be better tomorrow than I am today. So it’s this dissatisfaction that eats at me all the time. But I try to pair that with being really kind to others, so that my dissatisfaction doesn’t drive everybody else. Incredibly, it doesn’t it doesn’t hurt them. Right. And so it’s this balance I’m always trying to work on which is how do I be better tomorrow than today without driving people nuts around me? Sounds
like a common entrepreneur characteristic. Always climbing always striving, never quite satisfied. Yeah,
that’s, I don’t know if it’s a secret sauce, but it’s what works for me. Anyway.
Good stuff. And then finally here. Rob, what’s the best way for listeners to connect with you and follow along with Sorenson?
I’m so easy to find, right? So my email address is on our webpage. I accept all sorts of invites from LinkedIn and Twitter, whatever it might it’d be really easy to approach. And, and I because I like that I like having different points of view. I like hearing from different people. And so I’m easy to find. And
what did we miss today, Rob, that you’d like to share with the audience before we close out here,
you’ve been so comprehensive, you’ve done, you’ve done a great job of touching a lot of different points. So I feel like we’ve covered a variety of topics in a short amount of time. I really, I really appreciate you inviting me to join you today. And I really appreciate the style of how you have a conversation flow. So there’s the thank you for that. And you’ve been incredibly generous.
Well, he is Rob Rueckert, and the firm is Sorenson capital. Rob, thanks so much for joining us today and sharing your wisdom after 100 deals complete. Congratulations, I thank you. Take care.
All right, that’ll wrap up today’s interview. If you enjoyed the episode or a previous one, let the guests know about it. Share your thoughts on social or shoot him an email. Let them know what particularly resonated with you. I can’t tell you how much I appreciate that some of the smartest folks in venture are willing to take the time and share their insights with us. If you feel the same, a compliment goes a long way. Okay, that’s a wrap for today. Until next time, remember to over prepare, choose carefully and invest confidently thanks so much for listening