Matt Higgins of RSE Ventures & Business Hunters joins Nate to discuss Swimming in the Shark Tank, How Gary Vaynerchuk Got His First Check, and Mastering Your Mindset. In this episode we cover:
- Matt’s Background: from Shirtsleeves to Shark Tank
- Why He Invested in Gary Vaynerchuk and Vayner Media
- Tips for Entrepreneurs to Master their Mindset
- And more!
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0:16
Matt Higgins joins us today from New York City. Matt is a serial entrepreneur and growth equity investor as co-founder and CEO of RSC ventures, a firm that he co founded with Steven Ross. RSC has made numerous noteworthy investments AssemblyOSM, VaynerMedia, and Magnolia Bakery to name a few. Matt has also spent two seasons as a guest on Shark Tank, and is the host and executive producer of business hunters. A show that will be airing soon on CNBC. Matt, I feel like I’m just scratching the surface of your background with this introduction. But welcome to the show.
0:5
Oh, thanks for having me.
0:53
We’re gonna get into the founding of RSC in a moment. But I’d like to start with your background, as mentioned in the introduction of a wide-ranging set of experiences that we’ll go through today. But I’d like to go back to the very beginning and talk just a bit about your childhood. For those that don’t know, can you share the story of your upbringing and the lessons that you took away from your childhood that set you up for success in your career?
1:16
Yeah, that’s a big question. But I grew up in Queens, New York, I was raised by a single mom who was great, very smart, but didn’t have a lot of tools. To compete with her disability we use we’re going since I was pretty young, she ended up in a wheelchair. By the time I was 26. She was a high school dropout. And after she got divorced from my dad, she went back to college on the GED, which also influenced many of my decisions, I can get to that in a second. So my background in my early life was single mom poverty for miserable boys are selfish, rotten kids doing their own thing. And really me fending for myself a very early age, I learned the power of work and education the hard way I started selling flowers when I was 11 years old, actually, on the streets of Queens, I was that kid that would knock on your window, and started to sell you a $10 bouquet on Easter. And I would sell handbags at flea markets on top of a fan $5 leather handbags, I just basically every job including working in McDonald’s. And so that was my early background. And I learned a few important lessons. One, there’s no cavalry coming bite how much you might wish one would come in the dead of night. And that you have to take matters in your own hand. And to no one really has context into what you’re going through. So you have to be careful about how you take advice from others. What I mean by that as a kid back then at least, you were always trying to hide your poverty, I would do anything I could to get a pair of me down designer jeans. So I wouldn’t look like the quote-unquote poor kid from Bayside Queens. And as a result, anybody given me advice about how to navigate my childhood had no idea what I was going through taking care of my mother and how she was slowly deteriorating, how I would go to bed hungry, how we would live in shame going to food pantries on the weekend, taking a bus an hour away, so no one would see us there was just a whole element of my life that was secret. And why I say that is because I think a lot of us carry a lot of shame. And we don’t share the true extent of our pain. And as a result, the advice we get is distorted. So I’ll stop here. But I made a very radical decision. When I was 16 years old, which everyone said was completely nuts, which changed the entire course of my life.
3:27
I’d love to double-click on that. What was that inflection point in your life?
3:32
I didn’t think you would ask. So I like I said I was really struggling. And my mother had gotten the GED child, she had no choice. But I watched her go with that GED and get enrolled into City College. And I had an epiphany when I was around 13 years old, making 375 an hour at McDonald’s, that if I could become a college student as fast as humanly possible, suddenly, the jobs changed in the local Pennysaver. They went from man grunt work to suddenly making $8 An hour $9 An hour handing out flyers for a congressman, for example. But all I needed to do is get myself into college. And suddenly the plan became how do I get myself into college so I can increase my earning power as quickly as possible and pull forward my future. And I decided I needed to drop out. And I was going to drop out of high school, get my GED at 16 start college at 16 and double my pay overnight. Which sounds perfect when you’re 1314 years old, mapping it all out. But then you really have to execute. And that was the second epiphany I had was that there was so much pressure once I started screwing up school to reverse course no one thought this plan made any sense including my guidance counselor. And I realized that for me to fully commit, I needed to set the conditions up to reinforce my commitment I needed to burn the boats. And so I decided I was going to fail every single class high school, so I would have no choice but to execute my plan when I turned 16 So I did that for typing I felt was useful. So I still to this day. 100 words a minute, but I gave myself no option and I ended up going forward with it. I’ll skip next 20 years. But the bottom line is it worked out. Within a couple of months, I was enrolled in college at 16, I had a job that paid twice as much. I had one chest move, who wrote the story of my life, the look I used to get from my teachers, it was one of pity. And suddenly, it was one of respect. And I had pulled forward my entire career. By two years, it didn’t come fast enough to save my mother. But it definitely increased my earning potential unmade that situation better for her. So if I had listened to everyone at the time, who said, You need to finish high school, you need to stay the course, I think my entire career would have been different. I never would have had this paradigm of burn the boats and go all in and just gotta be a little bit defiant and trust your instincts, I would have ignored all my internal navigation systems in favor of suppose that expertise. And I don’t think I’d be sitting here talking to you with the career I’ve had.
5:58
Now, with all of your success today, do you feel like you’ve reached any sort of level of content in your career? Or do you still have that chip on your shoulder need to prove something to be defiant? Like, how is your mindset evolved over time as you’ve attained more and more success?
6:15
It’s such a great question, I would prefer to lie to you at this moment and tell you that I am now at the top of Maslow’s hierarchy, and completely self actualized and realized, but the reality is, not only do I feel content, I don’t feel particularly successful, because I only focus on that which isn’t working out. According to my plan. I spend an incredible amount of energy auditing my own decision making when things don’t play out the way I planned. Because I’m always trying to hack myself or the universe or unlock a pattern. I think that’s the very definition of a growth mindset, I’ve come to realize that I didn’t go to the mountaintop and realize there’s not much to see, right that I’ve been blessed to achieve the pinnacle of a lot of different industries. But no one particular aspect of success made me feel content or in any way diminish the desire to strive. So I’ve come to realize that the joy of living really is in the striving, unfortunately, because it would be a lot simpler if we could just like the race, do well and then collapse and relax, watch some Netflix and just call it a day. But I found that it’s not the way it works. And that the sooner you realize that joy comes from perpetual pursuit of trying to figure out where is the ceiling of my potential? What does God have in store for me? That’s what this is all about. So I no longer try to achieve contentment to any serious degree. I like to achieve pride. I think pride is important. I think if you can’t validate your own endeavors, then something’s maybe wrong, right, your body’s trying to tell you something, your mind is telling you something. So you shouldn’t be able to experience pride. And I really work at that, to feel good about what I’ve achieved. But I no longer look for resolution, anything I do. And I spend a lot of time battling imposter syndrome, talking about in a generic way now, which is good imposter syndrome. But I think impostor syndrome is nuanced. Anyone who is trying to break out and break into something new, is going to feel impostor syndrome because they are in fact an impostor until you’ve achieved it. And because I’m always trying to do something uncomfortable. I’m constantly battling with that every day and trying to talk myself out of it.
8:22
Yeah, it to your point about the ride, it definitely seems the joys and the getting not the having the pursuit, if you’ve been in pursuit in a number of different areas of your career. Prior to RSC, you started your career, I believe was in journalism. If I read that correctly, and eventually transitioned into operations at the New York Jets, how did you initially get involved with the NFL? And how did that lead to the CO founding of RSC with Stephen Ross?
8:48
Yeah, you have to look at your career as a series of attempts to connect different dots, and, frankly, to leverage the dots that came before in order to do the next one. So I’ve always asked myself this question, What can I do today, that I couldn’t do yesterday, that brings me closer to what I want to do tomorrow. So it’s like this sort of loop. And what I mean by that is, certain experiences that you want to achieve or have in life can only be achieved until you have the thing that comes before that sets you up, right? So, for example, I probably wouldn’t be teaching at Harvard Business School, if I didn’t go on Shark Tank. And those two might not seem perfectly correlated or related, but they are because once I went on Shark Tank, which was incredibly uncomfortable, we can get to that. I said, alright, what unfulfilled ambitions do I have that might be a little bit easier to get some attention for than I could have gotten before I went on the show. And I always want to teach now I had no background in teaching, potentially no business and teaching, but I had a passion for it. And I spent a year of my life making the case and fast forward. I’ve been up at Harvard business school for four years. So it’s a long way of saying there’s always the thing that came before that put me in a position to do it. The reason I got into sports was after Not 11, I was the mares press secretary during the attack. And I became one of the first employees of the new agency charged with rebuilding the World Trade Center. And that gave me tremendous experience in navigating land use situations, dealing with different constituencies, public private partnerships, all the same skills, you would need to build a stadium. And I leveraged those skills. When I had finished my tour of duty in the government, we had settled on a plan for the World Trade Center site, I leveraged those skills to get a job at the Jets, which had been nomads for four decades, trying to find a home of their own, and they needed somebody who could help run that effort. So you would look if you were looking closely, you’d say, well, where it’s in government have nothing to do with each other. I don’t know how these jobs are connected, the connection is one led to the other. And that is 100% true about every single thing I have done. And that is the pattern, figuring out how to leverage the thing you’ve just done to get you closer to what you ultimately want to be doing. Understanding, you’ll never quite answer that question. Awesome.
10:59
So we’ll be going deeper on Roc in a moment, which is done numerous great investments. But what led to starting the show, business hunters have been alluding to your book burned the boats, but you’re also coming out with the show business hunters. And I’d be curious if you can give the audience a primer for what the show is about and what everyone can expect.
11:20
Yeah, I’m so excited about the show. I love Shark Tank, not just in the United States, but around the world. And I was on two seasons of Shark Tank. But if you take a step back, you realize we have while we love the show, the act of seeking VC money is pretty foreign to most people. And most businesses that we run in this country are not the types of businesses you’re going to seek an investor, right? They’re designed to create a lifestyle, carry your family leave a legacy behind. So there’s a missing show in the world that documents, what’s it like to quit your job? And actually own your own business? Like how does it work? So many people have this desire to be free to call the shots and leave something behind? But how do you do it, and maybe they’ve saved up $100,000 After working really hard and they got the money to do it. They have the ambition, but there’s a gap and going from point A to point B. So that was the genesis for this show. It’s Mark Burnett production, he’s want to create as a shark tank, the apprentice, the voice, just an incredibly sir, wanting to really document this journey for all the people in the world who are looking to make that leap. I’m an executive producer on the show, along with Mark Burnett, and I am the host. And the show takes the Times a couple doesn’t have to be who know generally what they want. Maybe it’s a restaurant, maybe they want a pie Marina, maybe they’ve always wanted the dry cleaner. It could literally be anything. They come to us. And we with a team of brokers present them with three different ideas. And the show documents me dissecting those businesses, helping them look at it, helping them to set their own motivations. What are some common misperceptions that people have going into a business, for example, I’m gonna, I’m gonna buy a pizzeria and it’s great. We’re gonna have more time to spend on the weekends. It’s like no you want as a cash business, you’re going to be working there all the time, like a lot of the common misperceptions. And it’s magical, because at the end of the show, if everything works out, they’re ready to make an offer. And ideally, it was a meeting of the minds and they walk away with the keys to their business, I am so excited about it. I love helping the underdog. I love the journey of transcendence of trying to break out of your circumstances and achieve your dreams. Everybody I meet on the show, this is one of the best parts. Everybody who is choosing to go in this direction has something really magical about the way they look at the world and opportunity. You know, you might be sitting on wall street running a hedge fund and think you’d have nothing in common with someone from Hialeah, Florida, who runs five BMPs. And it turns out, they have everything in common. They have this desire to call the shots and this creativity and this little twinkle sparkle in their eyes. So I love the way it shows how the entrepreneurial journey no matter how big or small is effectively the same thing. It’s the pursuit of freedom and potential opportunity in Windows the show premiere, so we’re still have a launch date could be to this year or sometime next year. It’s on CNBC, which is also great. CNBC is doing a lot more content around extending business means right what business means to more and more people. I’m assuming either end of this year sometime in the spring.
14:27
All right. Keep an eye out for that. Do you want to transition back to RSC? Because following I believe it was your stint with the dolphins. You co founded RSC with Stephen Ross. And for those that don’t know Steven Ross, I mean, he is a pinnacle in the business world. I’m curious what was the inspiration behind Roc? And what is the thesis that you guys have? I spent
14:53
a lot of years in sports I ran the business of the New York Jets and oversaw the business of the dolphins. What we brought In an amazing CEO, so I have a pretty good sense of sports business and the culture of innovation at a lot of teams, or frankly, the lack thereof, the teams have an enormous reach and our society sports does. And as a result, they can be very picky about the innovation they adopt, right? To some extent, it’s almost becomes like a form of monopolistic power, right? They’re not really going anywhere. And they’re very reluctant to innovate prematurely, which makes sense, in some respects, because these are mature brands, and you want to make sure you protect the brand. But on the flip side, there’s just so much ability to reach people and really work on innovation. And I had found after working around football for years and years, a lot of times I was just frustrated, like, why do we have to wait so long to embrace Facebook back in the day? Like, why can’t we take a shot at Snapchat, it just seemed that bar to innovation was too high. And that was almost an institutional bias across sports with some exceptions. And the opportunity I saw was, if you could put together a portfolio of great brands, with a sports team at the epic epicenter, one, you can unlock a ton of potential for those brands. But you can also drive innovation back to the team in a way that creates this ecosystem, this sort of family of businesses, it sounds very abstract. But in the end, look to make it a little bit less abstract. One of the first big deals we did in partnership with Steve was to back Gary Vaynerchuk, became his only investor back in 2015, had been an idea I’ve been thinking about for years, I actually was Gary’s first client at the Jets game for for jets tickets to start the firm and went back and became partners with him. Why if you have a sports team, at the center of your sort of burgeoning empire, owning a large digital media firm, social media firm, and having that constantly refreshed, expertise is only going to help the team be a leader in the space. And fast forward. VaynerMedia is probably the largest privately held pricing firm focused on social media in the world, maybe even the largest privately held firm in the world. So it’s worked out. So imagine that general idea playing out across many investments and ultimately invested in Momofuku with David Chang milpark Christina Tosi wrote the first check into the Drone Racing League. So is the idea of creating this ecosystem of innovation with a sports team at the center.
17:26
The thesis makes a ton of sense, and your backgrounds and sports as well. And, again, makes a ton of sense. We
17:33
were back in the day selling robotics into teams, right? So you understand how just how surprising it is how to convince teams to be innovative, right,
17:41
it’s still a challenge for them. Yeah, I mean, we build something that we thought is providing a ton of value. But developing the market was perhaps even more challenging than developing the technology itself. They’re very slow to adopt new tech, because they have a lot
17:54
of power. To anyone out there who’s thinking about creating a business and a sector, my only caution to you is, you don’t want to be overly dependent upon one specific client or subset of clients to make your entire business work. And I think when you’re passionate about sports that can blind you, and you think, oh, everyone’s gonna want this new analytics tool that I came up with, or this new piece of hardware like you came up, that may be true in the abstract, but in the reality, teams are going to want to for free, they’re going to presume that you’re going to do a lot with their endorsement. And therefore you’re going to make money just on the fact that they view a deal. But if the only entities they’re trying to sell to are also sports entities, right, giving stuff away for free, or dramatic discounts, you’re gonna run out of clients to sell things to so I like businesses where you leverage the relationship with a sports team to give you the endorsement and an early use case that you then take to a much broader market. That to me makes a ton of sense. And that’s the early opportunities I saw around the NFL were was chances to take equity. In emerging technology, especially around social and digital, that you can get a general sense, we’re going to be pretty big, to allow for a little more experimentation. So you can benefit from the upside while also behaving in a more innovative way.
19:07
It’s rare to find a firm that has had so much success and consumer. How do you guys think about navigating the emerging trends within the consumer Zeitgeist and decide where to invest?
19:19
We also have plenty of losses, by the way, full disclosure. And the winds, I think, are because of our paradigm, our paradigm is that we just refuse to take the hit. We put an unnatural amount of energy into trying to work on situations. And because it’s a partnership between myself and Steve Ross, I do have the flexibility to be really creative. And if you just insist on living another day to figure it out, you will live another day. We generally take that paradigm to everything I’m involved in successful people, successful companies simply find a way in terms of how to pick number one, it always starts with the founder. It’s such a cliche, right you bet on the jockey but like cliches exists for a reason, they help guide us and make it a little bit more efficient. To recognize patterns, I always bet on the jockey. And the skills that I’m looking for or the attributes, or the fact pattern is number one, I want somebody who steer the ship around the iceberg, before it’s on the bow, you know that you don’t need to have evidence right in front of you that you are literally going to die. If you don’t change direction, in order to make a decision. And I find the CEOs, the founders that are paralyzed, and refuse to stubbornly or stubbornly refuse to pivot until it’s inevitable, those are the ones that usually end up failing or have mediocre results. So I try to first and foremost, find those who are likely to iterate because the ultimate business will look nothing like the original PowerPoint, that is always true. So there’s all these course corrections that need to be made along the way. And I find the personality profile that is likely to pivot before disaster is inevitable, is a blend of confidence and humility, the confidence to look at an audit your own decision making, and humility to admit that you are wrong. If you have those two together, you tend to make those decisions. And with enough time, I feel like the universe is very forgiving, we tend to look at the world can be very unforgiving. But I actually think the universe, to me at least has been very forgiving. It’s always usually gives me an opportunity to fix my screw ups before it’s too late. But self awareness is the lock. And self awareness goes in hand with evidence and humility. And then if my call inevitability, I want to have the feeling that the founder is pursuing this business, because it’s inevitable, like God, or whatever data you believe in, put you on this earth, to make this business come to life. Doesn’t mean it can’t be a side hustle for a moment in time. But I want to feel like this is inevitable, not that you are sitting in a class at your MBA. And you just decided to engineer your way into this because it’s a big Tam. total addressable market, I want it to be inevitable. So I know I’m giving you a lot but like to me, that’s I make within consumer are less important than who I choose to back and consumer.
22:02
What would you say is most memorable pitch you’ve had with a founder conversation that it was clear this is the ideal person to be starting this specific business at this point in time. It’s clearly a fundamental shift from the status quo into a new future. Can you recall a specific pitch that stands out in memory?
22:22
That’s such a it’s such a good question. I like when the universe or the world or the conventional wisdom filled still is skeptical about this particular technology or sector. And to me, it just seems so obvious that it’s going to happen, right? These macro tailwinds that I find irrefutable, but are still being refuted. Those are my favorite investments. I’ll give you two and then one specifically an investment. Like I think lithium. Lithium was obvious. Starting around 2018, I would think that the whole world is going to shift to lithium, lithium and Elon Musk has figured out the electric car, right. So at one time or another that I’m really excited about is Evie tall. I always thought that self driving cars is a little bit of fool’s gold. I’m not talking 20 years from now, that will be self driving cars. But this idea that they’re going to be here in five years is ludicrous because it requires too much collective action on the part of government. Anything that requires agencies to work together and infrastructure in order to materialize to me usually takes three times as long as you’re counting on the government, self driving cars, the technology part, once autonomy became an AI became a reality. That’s only a matter of time before you can make cars self driving, but that’s just the hardware. It’s the system that would take a long time. Evie tall, right? Electric Vehicle, takeoff and landing is an entirely different thing, right? It’s just the ability, the underlying act of helicopters already happens. Helicopters are not scalable for a variety of reasons, but mostly ways that are viable, and commercial centers, right. This idea that you can create vehicles that can transport people very quietly, energy efficient, and move them from airports, or other into city centers is transformative, and has applications in the military with delivering even organ transplant. So I’ve always been excited about even tall, and I’ve been looking at the space for a while now. And then I met the founder of a company called beta. And beta is competing in the EB tall space against Kobe and a few of the other ones Archer. But what I loved about the founder of data, it was like he was put on this earth to make this company and I met him had been Vermont and his at his factory where he’s building these incredible vehicles, the way he focused on one specific area of the market. We’re going transplants, which is a specific use case that and I could go on for an hour about this, but makes the most sense, rather than simply saying I’m going to promise Jetsons and flying cars, why don’t I focus on a discrete use case that I know there’s a definite need that needs to be resolved. And he did. And that’s one of the first services they’re going to be offering with these halls and military and transport. So that to me was I love those situations, but all of them all that constellation of factors come together, founder meant to be put on this earth to do it. A sector that has a massive tam but still a little bit in the distance that people no doubt. To me, that’s where the sweet spot of opportunity
25:06
met. If we could feature anyone on the show, who should we interview and what topic would you like to hear them speak about?
25:13
Oh, wow. I’m fascinated by Cathy wood. Because she is just just embraces innovation refuses to be cowered by the criticism. Obviously, for those of you don’t know, she runs Ark, big investment fund. They’ve had a tough year because they’re having in tech and innovation, but she just believes the truth will went out. And she’s almost got this evangelical quality, about her about innovation and how important innovation is to society. So I would love to hear you talk to her about how’d you get Tesla right? When so many people thought you were nuts, right for making the call. She made actually undershot the market cap by hundreds of billions of dollars. That’s how right she was. And then what’s the next Tesla what are people criticizing you for today for having such conviction and, and what are they wrong about? And why are they wrong? I’m always fascinated by patterns, why are people wrong? Why do people find it so much more, so much easier to shoot down innovation they do to embrace it right? And love to hear her so that I’ve just given you your mandate? You gotta get Cathy wood on your podcast, see what we can do
26:16
that what resources have you found particularly valuable, and would recommend to listeners, whether it’s a book, a blog, or article, anything else that comes to mind?
26:25
The associate what comes to the top my mind, because I’ve been going deep on this topic lately? I’d still say the vast majority of the population believes that crypto is not real or a fad or frankly, doesn’t understand it, or is a little bit uncomfortable about it. It reminds me of tick tock, remember, tick three years ago, I was like, what is that I was guilty, like not another service right now tick tock is basically Google and Amazon all in one, right? It’s become embedded in our society, the same is going to be true of crypto. And I think that people still are unduly skeptical about so I would argue if you want to go deep, and put your toe in, I would learn everything about ens ness is basically the domain name registration system for wallets. And right now, if you have a wallet, a crypto wallet, it’s basically your identification is 40 characters, 40 random characters, that’s not a sustainable way for all of us to interact in a world where crypto is essential and defy is embedded in our society. And so wallets are going to have a simple identity. And that’s the ens system. The same way sites have a simple system called DNS. So Amazon is not really Amazon, Amazon has a string of random numbers and digits. But if we had to repeat them, you and I would never interact on Amazon, it would just never be what it is today. So that’s the same naming convention is happening for web three, called ENSO. That’s one thing I would anybody listening, if you wish to lose yourself or go down the rabbit hole, just type in ens into Twitter, and you’ll see some amazing threads that will educate you
27:52
on the space. That what do you know that you need to get better at?
27:56
I need to prioritize my health like everybody else. But I’m working on that I’m constantly always trying to lose weight, I need to sleep. That’s the number one thing I need to get better. I do not sleep very much.
28:05
How many hours do you get? Oftentimes, maybe
28:07
four. But then sometimes I stay up for two or three days straight, and just go down the rabbit hole on topics. And then I’ll recover over the course of a couple of days. But literally no exaggeration will stay up for a couple, two or three days thinking, playing learning. Not very, not a healthy approach to live. I
28:26
don’t think you could do some sleep. Yeah, I
28:27
feel good. I’m talking to you. We’re having a relaxed conversation. I got some sleep last night. But sometimes I do believe this, if you want to discern the patterns in life, you have to get so tactical, and just immerse yourself under a compressed period of time. Because that’s when you’ll glean these insights. And it doesn’t work to like I’ll read a book for half an hour, or I won’t get my hands dirty and figuring out what it means to transact. I’ll just be able to repeat big words. I’m a believer in being a practitioner. So if I want to learn something, I go frighteningly tactical about it, you’d be shocked, or shockingly tactical, because that’s where you glean these insights to see how the work is actually done. I brought Gary Vee to Harvard, that’s actually a great class. And I see a lot of the students were skeptical. They only knew him from his Instagram posts or others different perceptions of Gary and to me, he’s family, but not everybody understands the breadth and depth of his mind. And they were asking, well, any good resources to learn Shopify, and just eat calm. The course I teach at HBS is called Moving beyond direct to consumer all about direct to consumer ecommerce business. And Gary’s answer, which I love was, yeah, I have an idea. Go sell something, find something that you buy at a yard sale or target and sell it for two times as much and create your little Shopify site or do it on eBay, whatever. I want you to sell something because if you really want to understand anything, you need to dip your toe and being a practitioner. So my advice to those out there who maybe beat themselves up about being more strategic, I said the opposite strategy Geez easy to discern read books, think meditate, be tactical be a practitioner and pick up the patterns.
30:06
And lastly, Matt, what is the best way for listeners to connect with you?
30:09
I like LinkedIn, I find that LinkedIn is like a warm bath. Civil discourse still rules, so shoot me a note over there on LinkedIn. Check it pretty regularly.
30:19
All right. Thanks again for coming on. This was a true pleasure.
30:23
All right. Thanks for having me. I really enjoyed it. And I hope to connect with anybody out there listening and one more shameless plug for my book, burn the boats, which comes out on February 14 Valentine’s Day.
30:34
Awesome. All right, thank you again.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
